wish: more than 2 panes (dynamically)

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George Hara
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Post by *George Hara »

Sorry, I just didn't receive notifications...

I didn't put a link to the site because my purpose was not to advertise. You should simply strip the URL to go to the site for more information: (here).

Haram, VadiMPG:

The program was designed so that only in rare cases the user would have to type anything. All file operations have a source and a destination column; there can be up to 10 vertical columns. The user simply drags the source column into the destination column, and a menu shows up when the mouse button is released. You can't use keys (like F5/6) because the program can't know the destination. TC also has such a drag menu, but only with few functions because the users mostly use the keyboard.

If Christian chooses to implement a function similar with the "tabs" thing, he should simply place some buttons either above or beneath the each pane, buttons which can have a customized caption. I say customized caption only if he decides to save the captions and the directories "contained" by these buttons. These buttons would behave like a "user history". So, buttons, not tabs! Of course, they can be tabs, but tabs would occupy more resources.

In the case of FileMatrix, columns are "integrated" (see the "Fix" button). When the user enters into a directory, if the "Fix" button of the column at the right is not "pressed", the directory is opened in that column. Basically, the navigation is sort of like a menu. But if the "Fix" button is pressed, the directory opens in the same column... unless the "Fix" button of that column is not pressed and so all directories would move to the left so that the newly opened directory would have room (in the same column). Sorry for the complexity of the explanation! The navigation is natural, that's the whole point.

The small rectangles on the left and right of each file name are used for information and for mouse operation. On each file name there can be 9 click operations and 6 drag, operations that can be changed by the user. For example: (single) left click on the right rectangle runs / opens the file / directory; right click opens the context menu; left click on the left rectangle selects the file, another displays a "Send" menu or a "Send drag" menu (for example, to use WinRAR to compress a file in another directory, with just a drag)... and so on. Technically speaking, even in a dual pane file manager, these things could be implemented, but it would me much more difficult for a user to see / understand them when the files in a pane are displayed multi-column.

If any of you thinks of asking Christian to implement a multiple column environment, you should understand that it's an entirely different approach to file navigation (and even management), and the program would have to be rewritten from scratch.

Chasbas:

An "undo" function for what? There is no file-manager with an undo function for copy / move operations. However, when you recycle files (= send them to the recycle bin), you can later restore them from the recycle bin (with the directory structure intact - something that Christian should implement in TC). You should stay away from undo functions for copy / move operations because of their complexity (especially on Windows2000/XP), because you definitely don't want to find out at some point that the files were correctly not restored. The best way for this is to implement various confirmation dialogs.

I don't understand what you mean with "natural sorting". The program sorts files by type: directory, links, programs, documents, other files. Though there are default extensions associated for documents, the user can select other extensions too. You don't have to use this sort mode (the files can be mixed, sorted only by name, not type), but sorting is performed only by name.
Last edited by George Hara on 2004-07-23, 19:11 UTC, edited 1 time in total.
VadiMGP
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Post by *VadiMGP »

2George Hara
The program was designed so that only in rare cases the user would have to type anything.
It is exactly what we can call different meaning for word "efficiency". When i say "efficiency" i mean "time", not quantity of typed keys. If i can save time (for example) by typing regular expression, i'll type it. I don't know what is filematrix. May be it is wonderful program, may be not. I just impressed by screenshot extremely overloaded by lot of detail. :shock:
If any of you thinks of asking Christian to implement a multiple column environment,
No, we don't speaking about more then 2 panels at the same time. We speaking about tabs (buttons,scrollbar,whatever) as more efficient way to handle 2 panels - left and right.
George Hara
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Post by *George Hara »

By "efficient" I also mean less time. Basically, the less you need to type (press keys, or click mouse buttons), the less time you spend on a task (even if we could speak to the text editor, instead of typing).
VadiMPG wrote:I just impressed by screenshot extremely overloaded by lot of detail.
That's why I've put the second image, with the fewest number of details.

With each new "improvement" of the navigation style of TC, the interface would get more and more crowded. There is no other way to do it. However, it is possible to put some options for hiding some features. If Christian decides to use tabs (instead of buttons), it would be more difficult to hide them, for users who don't want them there.

There is also another approach to this: to have "boards". There is a file manager (I don't remembre it's name on the spot) which has tabs, and each tab contains 2 panes. These "boards" are saved, each board's name can be saved, and also the displayed directories. The problem in that case is that you have to change both directories at the same time, which is usually inefficient.

FileMatrix has a similar implementation (the buttons under the main menu), but you can actually change all displayed directories, whether 2 or 10, and sort of have up to 30 different file managers (because each has its own view of the file system). And this is the reason I say that all the panes should have their status saved: there is no point in loosing all your work. Someone said he only needs them temporarily. Well, once you feel the taste of having all those directories at hand (one click away), you'll want them saved so you can restore them immediately when you restart the program.
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Post by *VadiMGP »

George Hara wrote:Basically, the less you need to type (press keys, or click mouse buttons), the less time you spend on a task (even if we could speak to the text editor, instead of typing).
Disagree. Basically, there no any correlation between time and typing (except case when i work as typewriter) :)
With each new "improvement" of the navigation style of TC, the interface would get more and more crowded. There is no other way to do it.
But in TC this didn't happen in last 10 years.
If Christian decides to use tabs (instead of buttons), it would be more difficult to hide them, for users who don't want them there.
Buttons, tabs, editboxes, comboboxes,scrollbars etc is just windows and nothing more. There is absolutely no differences in efforts to hide one window or another.
... I say that all the panes should have their status saved: there is no point in loosing all your work. Someone said he only needs them temporarily. Well, once you feel the taste of having all those directories at hand (one click away), you'll want them saved so you can restore them immediately when you restart the program.
Agree. It will be very nice to save/load tab status (and may be 100 more functions) if Christian will implement tabs.
George Hara
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Post by *George Hara »

VadiMPG wrote:There is absolutely no differences in efforts to hide one window or another.
I think you didn't understand what I meant?! If you would have tabs, you would have to hide the panes together with the tabs, but if you would have buttons you could simply hide the bar with the buttons (without the panes).
VadiMPG wrote:But in TC this didn't happen in last 10 years.
See the layout options! If all features would be displayed, it would be crowded, but I guess "crowded" depends on everyone's taste.
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Post by *chasbas »

George:

Sorry for the dry humor. My comment was indirectly referring to the fact that TC enthusiasts often argue about the benefits of adding complexity (like undo and natural sorting) at the price of comprehensibility. One of the best features about TC (and it's progenitor, Norton Commander) is its simplicity and ease of use as a file manager. TC is not supposed to be an end unto itself, an application that manages files for you. It is supposed to be a tool that does not interfere with your work but allows you to get your work done more easily.

If every time I wanted to copy a file I had to determine which of 10 columns contained the destination, it would drive me mad. In TC my fingers do most of the work, leaving my mind free to worry about my goal. If I have to involve my mind in every trivial decision, I might just as well use Explorer.

IMO, a task that requires a program as complex as that FileMatrix screenshot implies should be analyzed and reduced, maybe partially automated, or maybe rethought completely. But perhaps I just haven't seen the task that it's designed for, and it's just perfect for that.
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Post by *VadiMGP »

George Hara wrote:With each new "improvement" of the navigation style of TC, the interface would get more and more crowded.
George Hara wrote:See the layout options! If all features would be displayed, it would be crowded, but I guess "crowded" depends on everyone's taste.
Please, read your own messages more carefully.
The question was not how many options in option dialog but how TC GUI was changed due to adding new ftatures. So we need to compare TC 5.51 screenshot with (for example) WC 2.11. But indeed "crowded" is matter of taste.
If you would have tabs, you would have to hide the panes together with the tabs,
Really? I wrote many applications but never encouterd problem to display or hide tabs. May be i do something wrong? :D You probably mix tab control with property sheet.
George Hara
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Post by *George Hara »

Okay, Chasbas, I got it ;)
VadiMPG wrote:You probably mix tab control with property sheet.
By "tabs" I was thinking at a "TPageControl" control with a buch of "TTabSheet" controls. Now I understand that you were thinking at a "TTabControl" control with the height only big enough to contain the captions, and with the two panes beneath. ;)
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Post by *VadiMGP »

George Hara wrote:By "tabs" I was thinking at a "TPageControl" control with a buch of "TTabSheet" controls. Now I understand that you were thinking at a "TTabControl" control with the height only big enough to contain the captions...
Ok, i'm not familiar with Delphi, but judging from names "TTabControl" and "TTabSheet" we finally found the common language! One misunderstanding less.:)
... and with the two panes beneath. ;)
...or above. :wink: Good reason for a new battle.
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Post by *Hacker »

chasbas,
If I have to involve my mind in every trivial decision, I might just as well use Explorer.

LOL... Quote of the week?
:)

BTW: I know your name from somewhere... I remember I wanted to remember your name for some reason... oh, aren't you the one who didn't know how to compare two files in one panel?
;) (j/k)

Roman
Mal angenommen, du drückst Strg+F, wählst die FTP-Verbindung (mit gespeichertem Passwort), klickst aber nicht auf Verbinden, sondern fällst tot um.
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Post by *wanderer »

What a nice conversation. Does it have a point? :)

Hey, don't shoot, ok? Before i get flamed, here's what i mean: I too like the idea of having tabs/buttons in every TCmd panel for many many reasons :). What i'm concerned about is whether this whole conversation interests Christian. Has he expressed his opinion? Would he be interested in something like this? From what i can remember in an older conversation, he didn't like the idea of having more than two panels in TCmd because it would cause many problems (logical). Since tabs where proposed though, i don't recall seeing any comments from him. Perhaps he doesn't care or perhaps he is holding it for a surprise in TCmd 6! Anyone has a clue?
- Wanderer -

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Normally using latest TC on:
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Post by *Hacker »

Mal angenommen, du drückst Strg+F, wählst die FTP-Verbindung (mit gespeichertem Passwort), klickst aber nicht auf Verbinden, sondern fällst tot um.
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Post by *wanderer »

Hmmm, not much eh? I just hope he is considering it and that one day he will surprise us.
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Post by *chasbas »

Hacker wrote:chasbas,
If I have to involve my mind in every trivial decision, I might just as well use Explorer.

LOL... Quote of the week?
:)

BTW: I know your name from somewhere... I remember I wanted to remember your name for some reason... oh, aren't you the one who didn't know how to compare two files in one panel?
;) (j/k)

Roman
With a memory like yours it's no wonder you have no need of a TC logging ability.

Wouldn't you rather remember me as the person who supplied the quote of the week on May 14th instead of as that ignorant fool who can't read documentation? Why do I have the feeling that if I run for political office that particular folly will end up in the newspaper?
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Post by *JackFoo »

Wouldn't you rather remember me as the person who supplied the quote of the week on May 14th instead of as that ignorant fool who can't read documentation?
Hmm, not ignorant just lazy; (You might also be ignorant, that however we do not know)
Why do I have the feeling that if I run for political office that particular folly will end up in the newspaper?
Because you're absolutely correct, I cannot allow lazy politicians (as if we didn't have enough).
LOL

Cheers.
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