+[TC8.50b6] BTM and Overwrite / Skip All

[gdpr deleted 6]

The problem is observable in both the 32-bit and 64-bit TC8.50b6.
I used a fresh wincmd.ini, OS being Windows 7 Pro x64.

When having the Background transfer window opened through the menu "Commands" -> "Background Transfer Manager...", the BTM will stay open even if the queue is completely processed. So far so good.

In this scenario, choosing options like "Overwrite All" or "Skip All" (asked by the BTM when a file should be overwritten) will be remembered by the BTM as long as it stays open.

The BTM will now happily overwrite or skip existing files without confirmation as long as it stays open.

This will become a disaster scenario, when the user doesn't know or forgets this and continues to feed copy tasks into the still open BTM.
Heck, you might even believe you don't have this issue because no BTM window is open, not realizing that the BTM window might in fact still linger minimized or hiding behind some other windows.

I don't know what would be the best approach to this issue. I can see that the intention is to have the BTM operate as convenient as possible, avoiding it to become annoying. However, the behavior i explained here has (at least in overwrite mode) a real risk of becoming nuclear for the user.

In my opinion what should be done about it is the following:

1. Add a high-visibility indicator in the BTM window, if options such as "Overwrite All" / "Skip All" are remembered and active in the BTM.
2. When queuing up further copy tasks while "Overwrite All" / "Skip All" is remembered by the BTM, let the BTM ask the user if the Overwrite/Skip All action should apply to the newly queued tasks as well.
3. Perhaps, for those users who really want to have a minimum of annoyance and who can handle/want to take the risk outlined above, add a configuration parameter to switch between "Better safe than sorry" and "Shut up, i know what i am doing" mode... (but i guess, the current configuration options to disable/enable confirmations are sufficient).

The suggested approach also addresses the multitude of issues/confusion that might rise from the reported issue and the fact that you can have multiple open BTM windows at once (and which you can close in random order).


(Perhaps, this issue is also relevant for other "do action on all files" options, but i haven't looked into it.)

UPDATE: Just for clarification, when queuing up copy tasks from TC's copy dialog (F5), i never press the "Options" button. The F5 copy option "Ask the user" when overwrite files always remains untouched/active.
This issue is solely about the Overwrite file? question BTM might ask during copy/move tasks.

[MVV]

Maybe related.

I agree that some notification would be very useful. It is very dangerous because we can simply forget that flag was set...

[gdpr deleted 6]

Maybe related.

I agree that some notification would be very useful. It is very dangerous because we can simply forget that flag was set...

Yes, it seems to be the same thing as discussed later in the thread you linked. (I didn't read this thread first, since its title referred to " missing copyflags".)
Funnily, @white wrote his post just a couple of hours before i wrote my report


Ghisler really needs to do something about it. He cannot leave it as it is. This is a ticking time bomb...

[MVV]

I think copy dialog must notice somehow that specific flags will be applied. And BTM window too (e.g. red first list line with corresponding text).

[gdpr deleted 6]

I think copy dialog must notice somehow that specific flags will be applied. And BTM window too (e.g. red first list line with corresponding text).

You might want to take a look into this thread discussing BTM matters, which @White opened yesterday evening. There, he also suggests a solution for the BTM that gets rid of this and the copyflags issues.

[ghisler(Author)]

I don't see this as a desaster scenario - when the user chooses "Overwrite all" in the BTM, he expects that this remains active until the BTM is closed - or do you want to be asked again and again and AGAIN for each file you add?

[MVV]

What if user doesn't know about your magic trick with existing BTM window? Most of users don't read help at all until there is some unclear, but it is not unclear when you don't know about it. And, I can't even imagine which help section describes such behaviour. So I doubt someone will expect such side effect of existing BTM window.

You see, it has always been there but only a few days ago some users discovered it. This fact means that they didn't notice it before, but unfortunately it doesn't mean that they didn't do missed wrong overwrites/skips.

[white]

I don't see this as a desaster scenario - when the user chooses "Overwrite all" in the BTM, he expects that this remains active until the BTM is closed - or do you want to be asked again and again and AGAIN for each file you add?

Yes, of course the user wants to be asked if that is the default. Otherwise he would have selected Overwrite all in the options in the copy dialog or changed the default. The user expects the copy operation to be carried out exactly the same when carried out in the foreground, background, or queued.

You are assuming the user knows how the program works and that he is fully aware of the state of the last opened and still open BTM window at the moment he clicks on the F2 Queue button in the copy dialog. Seems to me this is as safe as Russian roulette.

Suppose the user copies a folder using F5, F2. When asked to Overwrite a file, he clicks Overwrite all. How is a (new) user to know that his choice might also be applied to the next file he copies using F5, F2? Even if he knows this, he might think the previous operation was finished already when he clicked on the F2 Queue button for the next copy operation. Oops, the user was wrong.

Suppose the user has 10 open BTM windows. He thought he clicked Overwrite all for an operation in BTM window 9. Oops.

Suppose the user has 9 open BTM windows. He forgot that he had closed BTM window number 10. Oops, the status of BTM window 9 was to overwrite all.

Suppose the user had opened several BTM windows using FTP Download From List and added several copy operations to different BTM windows. These windows close automatically when the queue is empty. The status of the last opened and still open BTM window changes all the time.

[Sir_SiLvA]

You are assuming the user knows how the program works and that he is fully aware of the state of the last opened and still open BTM window at the moment he clicks on the F2 Queue button in the copy dialog. Seems to me this is as safe as Russian roulette.

No, this is what I also expect from a User using TC - to be fully aware all the time what he does - if hes not well theres other options like SC etc...
TC doesnt work without a brain.exe

[ghisler(Author)]

See my suggestion here:
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?t=38446&start=15

[gdpr deleted 6]

You are assuming the user knows how the program works and that he is fully aware of the state of the last opened and still open BTM window at the moment he clicks on the F2 Queue button in the copy dialog. Seems to me this is as safe as Russian roulette.

No, this is what I also expect from a User using TC - to be fully aware all the time what he does - if hes not well theres other options like SC etc...
TC doesnt work without a brain.exe

Your argumentation is flawed. TC works in conjunction with a human. Unlike machines, humans don't have perfect memory.
Do you see your human error?

[gdpr deleted 6]

@white:
Thank you for explaining the issue regarding multiple BTM windows. Although i was aware of this issue and (only) hinted at it in my report, i could never have put it as concise as you.

[Sir_SiLvA]

Your argumentation is flawed. TC works in conjunction with a human. Unlike machines, humans don't have perfect memory.
Do you see your human error?

1. Please STOP using full quotes. Tia.
2. No its not but rather you seem to be one of the people having machines told you what to do instead of the other way around.
Sorry to say it so blunt but if your braim works like "fire and forget what you just did" tc is NOT for you!

[gdpr deleted 6]

1. Please STOP using full quotes. Tia.
2. No its not but rather you seem to be one of the people having machines told you what to do instead of the other way around.
Sorry to say it so blunt but if your braim works like "fire and forget what you just did" tc is NOT for you!

Did someone put something in your coffee? Cool down...

By the way, i am exactly the opposite of the person you describe in your second point. But i MUST do it as told by the inner/secret workings of the BTM. It's not me who tells the machine and who is in control.

If i want to copy A,B,C, and it's okay to overwrite the target. I will tell the machine. If i want to later copy X,Y,Z, the machine insist to overwrite, although i do not want. Heck, i never ever told the machine once that it should overwrite X,Y,Z. Still the software wants to do it, and does it, and i can't do jack about it; except shutting it down. This behavior right now is "I am told by the machine" in full force. Obviously, i don't like it at all.

However, with respect to the current issues with the BTM (not TC entirely) i certainly have to agree with your last assessment: If the BTM continues to behave like that, the BTM is not for me. Its current capability to multiply a mistake/error of mind into a serious accident would indeed make me not touching it at all

[romulous]

At this point in time, due to the amount of angst BTM and the way it works has caused for some users, my suggestion would be for Christian to just remove it totally.

On an unrelated note, I really feel sorry for Christian having to deal with a small number of very vocal users in this forum and the constant challenging of what he does. In his place, I would have ceased development of TC long ago, rather than put up with the amount of criticism that is directed to him.