God I loath the ribbon. My experienced customers dislike it also. The newbies like it Ok until they learn how to configure the quick bar, then they hide the ribbon and never use it. I see this over and over again...
TC's interaction paradigm is excellent and needs no rewrite. Even the icons have been modernized sufficiently. The only improvements I would encourage would be more control over colors and better feedback at scroll boundaries (bounce at limits) in anticipation of the certain invasion of Metro.
Interface UI
Moderators: Hacker, petermad, Stefan2, white
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Jon Canale
- Member
- Posts: 142
- Joined: 2003-02-07, 12:54 UTC
NO RIBBONS! What a dumb move by Microsoft. What existed for 20+ years is now hidden from experienced users, and the "new" users are as clueless as ever. And now they can't get any help from the experienced users because they don't know where anything is!
We have a 10-user corp license for our group of 100 people. I think only 8 licenses are in use, and mostly to use only one or two features (the ftp function, of all things!). Every time I try to explain the power of TC to the clueless, it's just over their heads. Even our new IT guy thinks he can do everything in Explorer.
I laugh at the big deal of UI. When it works, leave it alone. Change for change's sake is just fluff. TC is quite flexible now. Don't load it down with fluff.
IMHO!
We have a 10-user corp license for our group of 100 people. I think only 8 licenses are in use, and mostly to use only one or two features (the ftp function, of all things!). Every time I try to explain the power of TC to the clueless, it's just over their heads. Even our new IT guy thinks he can do everything in Explorer.
I laugh at the big deal of UI. When it works, leave it alone. Change for change's sake is just fluff. TC is quite flexible now. Don't load it down with fluff.
IMHO!
When we talk about ribbons it must be mentioned that Microsoft has decided to use them in Windows 8 Explorer. They also added some well known commands like inverting a selection.
2Ghisler
I really don't know why you think that Ribbons are easier for the iOS generaton - whatever that is. Have you ever seen an iOS application in person? Apple uses just a few buttons in their productivity applications which display tabbed flyover menus optimized for touch. What is wrong about that? This is an UI optimized for small screens. Ribbons would have occupied the half screen - beside the fact that Apple uses Ribbons nowhere.
Anyway it's not a desktop UI and it's not a bad idea to look at what Apple does there. They use menus in all applications, simple toolbars - in some applications with dropdown menus - and in productivity apps they use floating panels a lot. So it's not so much different from what TC uses at first glance. I think there a lot of difference in the level of finish in information architecture and visual design between a typical Apple application and and an application like TC.
I think there is a lot of potential to improve the UI of TC as others mentioned but it's not the decision for or against a single UI element that would make a difference.
We need much better visuals. Look at the button style of the Apple file manager "Finder". They use monochrome buttons there - very elegant in my opinion. They really help to focus on the file panel.
Next thing is information architecture. I think the toolbar needs even more focus on important commands. Spacers could help to build groups of similar commands. The creation of dropdown menus is too complicated and there are no dropdown buttons by default.
The configuration dialog needs more focus on really important things and less stuff on one page or at least larger pages to allow more spacing between elements.
Non-modal dialogs for complex tasks exist but require extra command lines. Such things are way to complicated and hidden.
Please make improving the UI a big topic in TC 8.5.
2Ghisler
I really don't know why you think that Ribbons are easier for the iOS generaton - whatever that is. Have you ever seen an iOS application in person? Apple uses just a few buttons in their productivity applications which display tabbed flyover menus optimized for touch. What is wrong about that? This is an UI optimized for small screens. Ribbons would have occupied the half screen - beside the fact that Apple uses Ribbons nowhere.
Anyway it's not a desktop UI and it's not a bad idea to look at what Apple does there. They use menus in all applications, simple toolbars - in some applications with dropdown menus - and in productivity apps they use floating panels a lot. So it's not so much different from what TC uses at first glance. I think there a lot of difference in the level of finish in information architecture and visual design between a typical Apple application and and an application like TC.
I think there is a lot of potential to improve the UI of TC as others mentioned but it's not the decision for or against a single UI element that would make a difference.
We need much better visuals. Look at the button style of the Apple file manager "Finder". They use monochrome buttons there - very elegant in my opinion. They really help to focus on the file panel.
Next thing is information architecture. I think the toolbar needs even more focus on important commands. Spacers could help to build groups of similar commands. The creation of dropdown menus is too complicated and there are no dropdown buttons by default.
The configuration dialog needs more focus on really important things and less stuff on one page or at least larger pages to allow more spacing between elements.
Non-modal dialogs for complex tasks exist but require extra command lines. Such things are way to complicated and hidden.
Please make improving the UI a big topic in TC 8.5.
Last edited by Lefteous on 2012-03-01, 07:54 UTC, edited 1 time in total.
I really cannot understand such conservative attitude. But I will still use tc anyway 
3 crucial things in my opinion are needed:
- Use system icons (since developer insists on using Windows standard GUI be consistent and use it here also )
- Some dimming or shading of the inactive panel to make active more distinguishable .
- Ability to move and rearrange toolbars (lock-unlock) - buttonbar, command line...
see nothing fancy
3 crucial things in my opinion are needed:- Use system icons (since developer insists on using Windows standard GUI be consistent and use it here also )
- Some dimming or shading of the inactive panel to make active more distinguishable .
- Ability to move and rearrange toolbars (lock-unlock) - buttonbar, command line...
see nothing fancy
+1 Lefteous
BTW, why are you all against Ribbon? It was a great change and I like it in the Office. It was designed to simplify a complex UI. Of course, since everyone is using it just because it's trendy, you see it mostly in products where it doesn't belong - putting it in Paint and WordPad was questionable at least ...
But it doesn't change anything about the fact, that it can be useful.
P.S. I'm not saying to use it in TC.
BTW, why are you all against Ribbon? It was a great change and I like it in the Office. It was designed to simplify a complex UI. Of course, since everyone is using it just because it's trendy, you see it mostly in products where it doesn't belong - putting it in Paint and WordPad was questionable at least ...
But it doesn't change anything about the fact, that it can be useful.
P.S. I'm not saying to use it in TC.
Windows 10 Pro x64, Windows 11 Pro x64
While ribbons in Office might be better for you, they're not better for everyone. I for one still think that customizable and flexible toolbars are way better than fixed ribbons. If MS added ribbons as new default, but allowed users to switch back to menus and toolbars if they wanted, no one would have any reason to complain.
Now they did the same thing with Start menu in latest Windows 8 preview. They simply removed it. You liked it? Too bad, they don't care. They're convinced that colorful animated tiles are best for everyone. Would it be hard for them to leave the old Start menu as an option for those who really like it? Of course not, it was already there and it worked fine.
I'm always happy to get new toys. Just don't try to take the old ones from me before I myself decide to throw them away, when I find the new ones better. It's as simple as that.
Now they did the same thing with Start menu in latest Windows 8 preview. They simply removed it. You liked it? Too bad, they don't care. They're convinced that colorful animated tiles are best for everyone. Would it be hard for them to leave the old Start menu as an option for those who really like it? Of course not, it was already there and it worked fine.
I'm always happy to get new toys. Just don't try to take the old ones from me before I myself decide to throw them away, when I find the new ones better. It's as simple as that.
2umbra
I give you a few reasons from very different perspectives.
1. They are just ugly. They way different controls are layouted is so distracting. All these different sizes. This still makes me scream after so many years.
2. Resizing the Ribbons results in reducing the size of UI elements. This and other things makes It difficult for human beings to remember the place of a certain button or dropdown or whatever.
3. They don't scale very well. What does that mean? Inspectors in Apple iWork are floating panels which contain tabs with all sorts of commands. So if you want to see all diagram options and all the list formatting stuff at the same time you just open another inspector. Ever tried to make a second Ribbon?
4. Space efficiency. They need plenty of space as others mentioned. Compared to menus or panels like in iWork they need a lot of height. Today screens are mostly limited in height unless you use them i portrait mode.
I give you a few reasons from very different perspectives.
1. They are just ugly. They way different controls are layouted is so distracting. All these different sizes. This still makes me scream after so many years.
2. Resizing the Ribbons results in reducing the size of UI elements. This and other things makes It difficult for human beings to remember the place of a certain button or dropdown or whatever.
3. They don't scale very well. What does that mean? Inspectors in Apple iWork are floating panels which contain tabs with all sorts of commands. So if you want to see all diagram options and all the list formatting stuff at the same time you just open another inspector. Ever tried to make a second Ribbon?
4. Space efficiency. They need plenty of space as others mentioned. Compared to menus or panels like in iWork they need a lot of height. Today screens are mostly limited in height unless you use them i portrait mode.