Files on "Club Total" - an open letter to Maxwish

[Lefteous]

Hi,

I really like your site. It's a really good online archive of Total Commander plugins and tools.
In Total Commander 6.50 a new plugin installation system has been introduced. It provides a very easy way to install a plugin for many users. The archives provided on Club Total are embedded into another archive which make easy installing impossible. What about providing the plugin installation archives unchanged? Thank you!

[Maxwish]

There are reasons why the archives are "double packed".

The main one is that I want to give the download filename a more descriptive one than the normal abbreviated name the plugin authors give them, so people know what they are downloading and I can give some structure to all the download files. Otherwise I would have to use a CMS to present the plugins on the site, which takes a lot of resources of the server (making the site slow) and takes me a lot of time to update (with a job and trying to get a MSc degree, I don't have as much time for that as in the good old days Besides, I need to find me a new woman..dating takes a lot of time and is a lot more fun that TC, believe me!).
Now with the simple script that is running on CT, I can just synchronise the site with my local plugins collection at home, and I'm finished…(and no more worrying about CMS security and php/mysql code injections etc)

Another reason is that I like to add extra's to the archives, like source codes, language files collections, needed DLL’s, etc. Otherwise these would all be separate downloads what would make the numbers of files even more than they are now.

Besides, now the original filenames can be kept inside the outer archive, which gives you the ability to compare the original archives with files downloaded from other sources (the original plugin site or Totalcmd.net). Just CompareByContent to see if the file is the same or if one is newer / different. This is especially handy with archives names without version number (a strategy that more an more plugin authors follow, as I prevents the problem of having broken links on forums and linking websites, once you update the archive to a newer version)

So I’m not going to change this method. If you want installation ease or extensive descriptions, you can visit TotalCmd.net.
Only solution I have for the archives at CT: after downloading, unpack the archive to your personal plugins collection folder -that everybody should have - and then install using the auto-install method.

Personally, I install every manually

[Lefteous]

2Maxwish

The main one is that I want to give the download filename a more descriptive one than the normal abbreviated name the plugin authors give them, so people know what they are downloading and I can give some structure to all the download files.

Altering the filename is no problem for me.

Another reason is that I like to add extra's to the archives, like source codes, language files collections, needed DLL’s, etc. Otherwise these would all be separate downloads what would make the numbers of files even more than they are now.

That's a problem. If you add a DLL containing a virus by accident the plugin author could get a real problem

Personally, I install every manually

Me too but that's another story...

I have downloaded my DirSizeCalc plugin from your site. I cannot see the advantage compared to the archive from my site.

[gnozal8]

Altering the filename is no problem for me.

For me neither. I rename all the TotalCMD related files.

All my plugins are named like this :
TotalCMD_Plugin_TypeOfPlugin_NameOfPlugin_VersionOfPlugin
Example :
TotalCMD_Plugin_wlx_AmpView_210_beta1.rar

So its very easy to find and update my plugins.

Personally, I install every manually

Me too but that's another story

So do I

[Juergen]

There are reasons why the archives are "double packed".

The main one is that I want to give the download filename a more descriptive one than the normal abbreviated name the plugin authors give them, so people know what they are downloading

There are other, cleaner ways to do so, e.g. write a short descriptive text on the concerning HTML page near the download link. This works fine on other websites.

and I can give some structure to all the download files.

There are other ways to do so, just put them into different directories, create a separate HTML page for each group of plugins etc. ...

Otherwise I would have to use a CMS to present the plugins on the site,

Not necessarily.

Another reason is that I like to add extra's to the archives, like source codes, language files collections, needed DLL’s, etc. Otherwise these would all be separate downloads what would make the numbers of files even more than they are now.

That is not a good idea. If there is need for additional stuff, the author of the regarding plugin should be asked to add it. Plugin authors release a product, and like a hardware product, it has content, shape, and a name. Do you also buy a Mercedes, paint it in a new colour, put a BMW engine into it, and then re-sell it as Porsche?

Besides, now the original filenames can be kept inside the outer archive, which gives you the ability to compare the original archives with files downloaded from other sources (the original plugin site or Totalcmd.net).

LOL
First, by renaming the plugin files you create a problem that previously didn't exist at all. And then you tell us that what you are doing has the advantage of solving your self-made problem. Congratulations!

Juergen

[icfu]

@Juergen:

There are other, cleaner ways to do so, e.g. write a short descriptive text on the concerning HTML page near the download link. This works fine on other websites.

Maybe you should first visit a website before commenting it? Without renaming the files the current structure would be completely useless. Furthermore comments on websites only help before downloading, they have no effect afterwards when you recognize that you downloaded a dozen of archives with stupid naming scheme and you have to open it to know what's inside. Maxwish's naming scheme tells you the type of plugin, the category, the plugins name and version number and this is exactly the info I need when updating.

That is not a good idea. If there is need for additional stuff, the author of the regarding plugin should be asked to add it. Plugin authors release a product, and like a hardware product, it has content, shape, and a name. Do you also buy a Mercedes, paint it in a new colour, put a BMW engine into it, and then re-sell it as Porsche?

The original archive is not changed at all, it's just a repack with additional stuff and it's useful to, for example, pack all "TC restarting tools" in one zip to prevent clutter. The author of one of those tools can not decide that.

LOL
First, by renaming the plugin files you create a problem that previously didn't exist at all. And then you tell us that what you are doing has the advantage of solving your self-made problem. Congratulations!

You can criticize Maxwish's approach but do not LOL at him, this is rude and awkward towards a man making TC as big as it is now because of his decision to create a wonderful site concerning TC plugins and stuff.

Before there was nothing but the official plugin section with fewer content than people living on the moon.

My point of view:
I would recommend ghisler to implement double extraction of zips an option to be used for automatical plugin installation so that Maxwish can keep his current approach which is rather useful. I doubt that I will have more fun when downloading three dozen icon collections separately with different names when i can have them all at once in one single archive.

Icfu

[Maxwish]

Juergen

LOL
First, by renaming the plugin files you create a problem that previously didn't exist at all. And then you tell us that what you are doing has the advantage of solving your self-made problem. Congratulations!

let me give an example what I mean:
CDBFVIEW plugin

Original Download website: (last link at bottom)
http://www.whitetown.com/download.php3
Downloaded file from author site: file called cdbfview.zip
No file version in name and if you saw a file like this on your harddrive, you would probably not associate it with TC or even know what it did…

Download file from CT, outer archive now called: WLX-dbase_CDBFview_1.10.zip
ah! a lister plugin, and something to do with databases...interesting. Version 1.10

Now simply CompareByContent the cdbfview.zip in this archive with the originally downloaded archive from the authors site to see if the original download is the same version or not.

And if the source code would have been a separate download, I would have added it to the archive too. Keeps the number of files in your directory down and stores all the files that belong to each other together.
The best function of TC is that you can see archives as folders. So I'm only using this function to its potential.
/end example

As I said before: the main reason for the double archiving is my personal ease. I only have to synchronize my home folder with the FTP server to get the CT site updated. Using a HTML page with text descriptions and then having to update all the version numbers and newly added features is just too much work. Believe me, I did this already a couple of years ago with the pre-clubtotal site, and at that time there were only WCX plugins…
That’s why I started using a CMS: but that turned out to be a lot of work too, after an upload of new files you still have to change every filename and version number in the database, using the CMS interface. After a few months it gets boring as hell. And using a CMS gives security problems. You could be gone for a nice weekend with your girl, only to return to see your site was hacked on Friday night by some bug in the CMS. I don’t want to be accountable of that (any more)!

TOTALCMD.NET lets the plugin authors do most of (updating) work themselves with their login accounts! Smart guy that Ergo! But no need for 2 of those sites!
So as I said before: please use Totalcmd.net is you want easy installation and fine descriptions.
Use CT as a backup site or as a place where you can link to, when you want to share plugins with others. Or see it as “an alternative” your preference doesn’t go out for, but maybe other people do..

Icfu
Thanks for the support!
But no need for Christian to implement the auto installation for double archives...that would be just ridiculous...let him focus on all our other improvement requests

[icfu]

You're welcome, points of views are different so it's all a matter of taste.

But no need for Christian to implement the auto installation for double archives...that would be just ridiculous...

I have often wanted to be able to auto extract double packed archives with one keypress, long before autoinstallation was available, so, just regard it as a feature wish from me not having anything to do with your way to do things.
Besides helping me it would satisfy all those users using the autoinstall feature. Personally I don't use it 'cause I prefer the Plugins Manager to install plugins simply by doubleclicking so I need to unpack and rename the archives anyway to keep my hd in good shape.

let him focus on all our other improvement requests

If it helps to give focus on more important things I will gladly do that. Consider my request as been retracted.

Icfu

[Juergen]

2icfu:

Maybe you should first visit a website before commenting it?

Are you trying to say, that I did not do so? Maybe you should take your crystal ball back to the shop, it's obviously broken. Take note of the fact, that I did visit Maxwish's website before I wrote anything in this thread.

Without renaming the files the current structure would be completely useless.

So what? What do you think why I suggested in my previous post to change the structure of his website?
Maybe you should first read a text, before replying to it?


2Maxwish:

Downloaded file from author site: file called cdbfview.zip
No file version in name and if you saw a file like this on your harddrive, you would probably not associate it with TC or even know what it did…

I understand what you are saying. But to me it doesn't happen that I just "see a file like this on my harddrive", without knowing what it is. I have to keep things tidy on my harddrive anyway, and I know very well what I have downloaded. I can recommend also to anyone else to keep track of what s/he downloads.

Juergen

[icfu]

Are you trying to say, that I did not do so? Maybe you should take your crystal ball back to the shop, it's obviously broken. Take note of the fact, that I did visit Maxwish's website before I wrote anything in this thread.

Yep, I thought so, otherwise you would have seen that on his open dir site it is absolutely necessary to rename files to prevent cluttering and chaos. It's not that a section only consists of two or three files, most of the time there is a dozen of files belonging to one category of plugins.

So what? What do you think why I suggested in my previous post to change the structure of his website?
Maybe you should first read a text, before replying to it?

He already mentioned that he won't change his site for several reasons. Creating additional folders containing all those badly named archives is not better for the user but chaotic.

Right now you enter one section and see all available files on first sight, without having to enter various subfolders and hitting back and forward in the browser permanently.

I understand what you are saying. But to me it doesn't happen that I just "see a file like this on my harddrive", without knowing what it is. I have to keep things tidy on my harddrive anyway, and I know very well what I have downloaded. I can recommend also to anyone else to keep track of what s/he downloads.

Most people use Maxwish's site to update all of their plugins in one go and then it's good to have a good overview. For daily updates or information about plugins it's not suited anyway in the current open dir situation, use totalcmd.net for that which offers additional information about the files so you can rename them already while downloading if the archives contain only crap names like "Icons.zip".

Maxwish's site in the present look is suited only for people knowing what they are looking for and exactly those will be happy to find their stuff in no time using CTRL-F with one click or sorting by date and checking what's new.

Icfu

[icfu]

I don't wanna start or join any quarrels here, just tried to make clear my point of view which is that your proposals don't fit the actual situation of the website.
The present look is the indirect result of a hacker attack on the former "normal" looking Club Total website and so proposals like additional html pages and fancy stuff like that are just pointless because if Maxwish wanted to go back like it was he just would do so.

If you want just take a look at the CT website how it looked in past days:
http://web.archive.org/web/20031124161007/http://www.clubtotal.tk/

Icfu

[Hacker]

icfu,

people knowing what they are looking for and exactly those will be happy to find their stuff in no time using CTRL-F

People who know what they are doing do not use Ctrl-F...

Roman

[icfu]

What else?

Icfu

[Hacker]

icfu,

What else?

/ or nothing.


Roman

[Maxwish]

To be off-topic (this thread seems to be about all others things now ... )

If you want just take a look at the CT website how it looked in past days:
http://web.archive.org/web/20031124161007/http://www.clubtotal.tk/

damn! CT used to be quite nice :)
Thanks for the memory