some day people will forget TC, just like NC in DOS age

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Zenman
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some day people will forget TC, just like NC in DOS age

Post by *Zenman »

Mr. Ghisler still emphasizes the importance to support win9x or win3.1, the size and the startup speed. Also he stated that unicide version, 64 bit version are not necessory.

Just have some quesitions:
(1) is he so kind to consider first the need of third-world people who run win9x on a 386 pc?

(2) can we feel the difference between a 4M exe file and a 2M file? is it really important to carry TC on a floppy disk?

(3) while some features (unicide, etc) can be implemented easily with modern compiler, why ghilser still do these jobs by hand?

my wishes:
Mr.ghisler should hire some people to modify some unimportant code and upgrade his compiler. It might take several monthes. But I think it's necessory for the future of TC. :D
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Re: some day people will forget TC, just like NC in DOS age

Post by *Jungle »

Zenman wrote:Just have some quesitions:
(1) is he so kind to consider first the need of third-world people who run win9x on a 386 pc?
Hey! I work on Win98 (and know the people who works on Win95) and will work with this OS probably until my PC is dead.
Zenman wrote: (2) can we feel the difference between a 4M exe file and a 2M file? is it really important to carry TC on a floppy disk?
1. I (and a lot of people) have a dial-up internet connection with low speed so the less filesize is the better it is for me (us).

2. I remember the ZX Spectrum and those great things that coders wrote having only 48 or 128 Kb of RAM.
And nowadays i have tears running sometimes when i see an application with one emty form which has size of 300-400 Kb.
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Post by *majkinetor »

2 Zenman
(2) can we feel the difference between a 4M exe file and a 2M file? is it really important to carry TC on a floppy disk?
Yes, we can. Yes, it is important.
It is not so important to be on floppy but to be as small as possible, because it is the only good way. You see, if you have only one big application running in your system then no big deal about that, but imagine 15 applications running (regular scenario) all to be 5MB size, laying resident in your system... that's what troubles me. Other side of multitasking medal.
(1) is he so kind to consider first the need of third-world people who run win9x on a 386 pc?
I agree on you with this one. This should be low priority task. But this has nothing to do with size or speed because it should remain like this - only with compatibility.
some day people will forget TC, just like NC in DOS age
I didn't forget NC nor DOS age. I just don't use that system any more.
And people will forget anything, even the best stuff on this world if somebody shows them (regular scenario). This has to do with mind ersers commonly found in all-around media.
2. I remember the ZX Spectrum and those great things that coders wrote having only 48 or 128 Kb of RAM.
And nowadays i have tears running sometimes when i see an application with one emty form which has size of 300-400 Kb.
Correct !
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Post by *frenky »

Also he stated that unicide version, 64 bit version are not necessory.
Concerning unicode version I strongly disagree with author (Ghisler) that unicode can wait. Now day in age this is very, very important.

It is commendable that you keep this product for 16bit platform and Win9x but let me ask you why do you support this platforms when MS has long abandonend support? This blocks more advancements for NT platfrom... You should look more to the future.

I followed several threads on this topic, and I understand that there are quite a few users that have old PCs and do not have resurces to buy new hw to run NT based Windows (or do not need to).
In my opinion, they are not that demanding population if such sw/hw sattisfies their need.

I agree that 64 bit version is not that important at the moment, but soon it will be. At least for plugin development. I'm fairly doubious that core TC would benefit from this. Plugins will.
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Post by *Lefteous »

2Zenman
s he so kind to consider first the need of third-world people who run win9x on a 386 pc?
As you can see he is. The question should be: Should there be other priorities?
can we feel the difference between a 4M exe file and a 2M file? is it really important to carry TC on a floppy disk?
The size of an executable doesn't say anything about its speed. The question should be: Why do you want a 4MB executable file? What could be the advantages?
while some features (unicide, etc) can be implemented easily with modern compiler, why ghilser still do these jobs by hand?
Mr.ghisler should hire some people to modify some unimportant code and upgrade his compiler. It might take several monthes. But I think it's necessory for the future of TC.
This thread has the answer:
http://www.ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?t=7626
The conclusion is that TC would have to rewritten completely to support Unicode this way (I guess Ghisler is right about Delphi features). I don't know how long it takes to completely rewrite the program. Consider that developent took already more than 10 years until now.
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Post by *djorge »

Maybe i will change someday. Although that day is very far.
But i will NEVER forget it.

After some years, i still remember the old DOS Navigator with its beautiful fire screensaver.
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Post by *majkinetor »

Yes, Dos Navigator was the greatest....
Did you know that it is made by Rt Labs the same people that make The Bat today...
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Post by *djorge »

Yes. And The Bat! is another great application....
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majkinetor
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Post by *majkinetor »

I definitely agree on that.


2 icfu
Look what I found
"Personal Firewalls" - A Complete Failure

I guess U were right...
We are not doing this just for the money.
We are doing it for sh*t load of money.
 
 
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Post by *Hacker »

djorge,
DOS Navigator with its beautiful fire screensaver.
Bah, Starway was the best! ;)

Roman
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Post by *ZoSTeR »

2 icfu
Look what I found
"Personal Firewalls" - A Complete Failure

I guess U were right...[/quote]

[ot] I agree that Personal Firewalls don't necessarily protect againts specific attacks.
I prefer to see them as tools to control and monitor the network activity of my pc. Lately I'm more concerned of what leaves my pc (spyware, adware and hidden callbacks) than of what might want to come in.
So I still think that the advantages of having a good PF (not some Norton sh*t) outweights its theoretical addition of attack vectors.
This implies that having a good understanding of the services you're running is equally important.[/ot]
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Post by *Sam_Zen »

I think, a discussion about PF's is somewhat off-topic here.
Zenman wrote: Mr.ghisler should hire some people to modify some unimportant code and upgrade his compiler.
What do you mean by 'unimportant code' ? Any code in an executable is there for some reason I think, otherwise it wouldn't be there. Another thing of course is the finetuning by making the routines more efficient, plus the debugging. In theory, this proces should lead to even a smaller size of the program. The same should be valid for the next version of an OS. In reality, this of course often isn't the case, because of new concepts and new extensions added to the system, so the application has to keep up with the recent developments.
Jungle wrote: I remember the ZX Spectrum and those great things that coders wrote having only 48 or 128 Kb of RAM.
I don't want to brag here, but I started with a ZX 81, which had 2K Ram that had to be shared by the basic program and the contents of the tv-screen. This forced me to program with as less lines as possible, and to make an optimal use of the space. Later the same with writing in machinecode. I don't program any more, but I have never left this principle, even with today's hardware with high clockspeeds and giga's of disks and ram. That's why
majkinetor wrote: It is not so important to be on floppy but to be as small as possible, because it is the only good way.
is right.

3rd-world people ? What's wrong with being content with some OS version, because everything is functioning fine ? It just depends on the personal circumstances and the kind of work to be performed.
I consider it ridiculous, that a person, only using some text-editor, does this on a set running on a 2 Ghz clockspeed.
My main machine is running W2000. Everything is ok, so that's final. No need to follow the consumertrends for those
huge XP's or Longhorn's etc. I have my previous set (233 Mhz) still operational for other activities. Plus, and this could be considered as 'stone-age' people, I still have one of my first XT's (33 Mhz) available as well, running DOS 6.2 with, of course, NC on it, to use as a game-computer. This, because my main set is for my work, not for entertainment.
Games like Dune I, Wolfenstein, Lemmings, or The Incredible Machine were very well programmed, fitting on one diskette (floppy is the wrong word) considering the tenth of levels available, all with different backgrounds and options.
Lefteous wrote: The size of an executable doesn't say anything about its speed.
Right on. But I'm afraid the idea has been implanted, that 'the bigger the better'. In pc-settings, often on the contrary, I would say.

I would like to add a concept by the late prof. E.W. Dijkstra : a program should be 'elegant'.
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Post by *JP »

Hacker wrote:Bah, Starway was the best! ;)
Yeah, Stairway to Heaven was the best...Jimmy Page's solo was fantastic. Led Zeppelin was THE BEST. I agree with you, Roman. :D :D :lol: :lol:
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[OT] PeErsonal firewalls

Post by *majkinetor »

@ ZoSTeR
ZoSTeR wrote: I agree that Personal Firewalls don't necessarily protect againts specific attacks.
The text from the link was not about attacking, but sending information from within the system using IE and progammatically simulated user interaction. Anyway, I agree with
I prefer to see them as tools to control and monitor the network activity of my pc
and that is the main reason for me to use them - i like so much to forbide access to internet to almost every program that exists today.... even World of Worcraft has spyware, which happend to be the most populare game ever.
So I still think that the advantages of having a good PF (not some Norton sh*t) outweights its theoretical addition of attack vectors.
Attack vectors ? he he... I like that. Norton shi*t... I like that also.

It is not really arguable weather to useall those protection systems including antivirus software. Today we have "hacker defender" wich can bypass every AV and every possible monitor on system. But that doesn't make AV or FW software less powerfull, just limited. As my understanding of hacking goes, the best hackers out there are generaly not malitious people, but there are others who use their knowledge and use their tools. Those people are not hacking gurus because of stolen knowledge. They can' t find workaround for eventual problem since they didn't invented the original procedure or too oftern even don't understand it. So, AV or FW are made to protect you from those fools, not from real hackers... the only thing that can save you when they show up, is your knowledge.

@ jp
Yeah, Stairway to Heaven was the best...Jimmy Page's solo was fantastic. Led Zeppelin was THE BEST. I agree with you, Roman
On the other hand, there are things, that should be forgoten .... 8)

@Sam Zen
a program should be 'elegant'.
You know what they told me on my job ?
WE HAVE NO TIME FOR THAT! Just make it work....
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Re: [OT] PeErsonal firewalls

Post by *Xyzzy »

majkinetor wrote:including antivirus software. Today we have "hacker defender" wich can bypass every AV and every possible monitor on system.
It was, 2 years ago, you are not up to date.
majkinetor wrote:So, AV or FW are made to protect you from those fools, not from real hackers... the only thing that can save you when they show up, is your knowledge.
The only thing that can let them do anything is lack of good security practices. Or LOTS of luck.

BTW, my backups beat any hacker anytime...

X.
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